God Vs. Something Else

[Casper]

It might be because I'm tired as hell, so I'm having trouble getting the idea... Do you mean "god" is the reason we even exist? And without this "reason", it would be more likely that nothing would even exist? Not god as in religious views, but just as... Well, the reason? Damn, it's hard to out it into words, I get the trouble you had, lol

[Gemma]

It might be because I'm tired as hell, so I'm having trouble getting the idea... Do you mean "god" is the reason we even exist? And without this "reason", it would be more likely that nothing would even exist? Not god as in religious views, but just as... Well, the reason? Damn, it's hard to out it into words, I get the trouble you had, lol

See what I mean? Its difficult to place even the whisper of the general idea into words, let alone see, feel, and understand the real McCoy.  Its just thought, without opinion.  What I meant was 'if' there is a reason, that reason is what some call 'god'.  Thats an 'if/then' argument in the literal/logical sense of an 'argument'.  One can also argue then 'if there is no reason, there is no god' and so on..   Just logical dilemmas I care not to trouble myself with. . . But since the discussion was open, I choose 'if there is a reason, that reason is god'.  It begs an answer I do not need. (nor care for) 

[SnKQuaKe]

I laughed very hard at your sig gemma. hilarious. (the it was this deep one)

popcorn means im just sitting back and enjoying the convo

[Casper]

@quake: ahh, I see. I've never heard anyone say it like that lol.

And gemma: that's basically how I feel. The logical dillemma thing. And I've never thought of god in that way. And the thought that existence itself is... Almost out of place, I guess. I've never thought of that, and I've questioned reality quite a bit. I still don't think that we have a conscious being shaping our universe, but that "reason" for existence has definitely made me think. I'm not going to suddenly devote myself to god or anything, but it certainly opens up my mind...

[Gemma]

Just for the record though, I never said there 'is' a reason.  Its just.. well.. popcorn. .
I'd be careful with that consciousness thing though..  Neither science nor religion can define it, but it defines you
It literally could be that simple.  What if you could move things with your mind?  What if you could build things with it?  There have literally been documented cases of people moving objects with their minds, or 'consciousness'.

So... What if there were a consciousness 10million x the size of the sun?  What then would it be capable of?  What would it's dreams be like?  My father told me once 'if you can fathom it, it is possible'.  Even young children wonder 'could this all be a dream? Could reality literally be a figment of my imagination?'  My question to you now is:
Could we all be a dream? A literal figment of 'its' aka 'the reason's' imagination?

Well.. Could we?  Just a little more popcorn for you..

[Gemma]

I laughed very hard at your sig gemma. hilarious. (the it was this deep one)

popcorn means im just sitting back and enjoying the convo

oh and thanks. 

[Casper]

My problem with the consciousness 100000 times the size of our sun is that, if consciousness is truly just the interaction between forces and particles, not all consciousness is self aware. In fact, very, very little would be. They would work like a computer: taking in forces, spitting out the according movements and reactions. We can only think because of our brains. Unless there is a physical structure calculating and moving throughout the universe, as big as the universe, I don't believe there could be a god, in the way most people see god. And also: I know you didn't say there is a reason, but there was nothing to say about the alternative. It's always more interesting to go with the idea that requires more thinking, not ending the thoughts. Which, is why I assume all this is real. If this isn't real, if we are just a dream, or in a dream, then what else is there to wonder about? It's much better, imo, to assume this is all real. It's like a maze: why purposely head toward the dead end when there's so much more to explore?

[Gemma]

My problem with the consciousness 100000 times the size of our sun is that, if consciousness is truly just the interaction between forces and particles, not all consciousness is self aware. In fact, very, very little would be. They would work like a computer: taking in forces, spitting out the according movements and reactions. We can only think because of our brains. Unless there is a physical structure calculating and moving throughout the universe, as big as the universe, I don't believe there could be a god, in the way most people see god. And also: I know you didn't say there is a reason, but there was nothing to say about the alternative. It's always more interesting to go with the idea that requires more thinking, not ending the thoughts. Which, is why I assume all this is real. If this isn't real, if we are just a dream, or in a dream, then what else is there to wonder about? It's much better, imo, to assume this is all real. It's like a maze: why purposely head toward the dead end when there's so much more to explore?

Well, thats not really what I was saying.  I didn't mean that this isn't real, and by real, I mean physical.  What I meant is that if a 'being' as small as us can move objects, what could a massive 'being' do?  I didn't really mean a literal 'dream', more, a manifestation of its own will.  The universe, and by 'universe' i mean 'time', expands as the giant sleeps. . .   Its a fun little corner of the maze, thats all.  Again, its not necessarily my opinion that this is the case, its just fun to explore the idea.  Again, I won't really discuss my actual opinions until I talk with someone that has the same information that I do.  Wars are fought that way, and people die for this reason. 

Something I've been thinking about more than 'god' lately is 'nothing'.  And by nothing, I mean the lack of 'all'.
No matter, no time, no space... Nothing.  I have a small tattoo to remind me of this often, and I find myself getting even more confused 12 years after I marked myself with it.

I read this article in science magazine regarding 'anti-matter'.  Steven Hawking seems to think that in the beginning there was this great collision of matter and anti-matter.  I don't have a problem talking about my opinions regarding this, because it does not contend with anyone's beliefs regarding 'god':

My problem with the entire concept of 'anti matter' is that it 'isn't' at all.  Its not 'something' in the sense that we think of 'things', in fact, it must be quite the opposite.  Its the lack of all things.  'It', is 'nothing'.   Try to imagine 'nothing' and out of nothing, comes the universe.  Through a pinhole, time, matter, and 'all' comes roaring, expanding, destroying nothing in its path.  But where did it come from? I think, Casper, it came from the same place its going:  The center of the universe.  Try to bear with me on this:

Try to imagine the universe having two parts: one expanding, one collapsing. As one expands, from the pinhole, the other is collapsing into the same pinhole.  Try to imagine it looking something like an hour-glass.  Its like taking a beach-ball, letting some air out, and twisting it in the middle.  As you squeeze one side of it, the air moves into the other side, and visa versa.  We already know that time is contingent upon gravity, which is contingent upon matter and mass.  So then, what happens when the entire universe has finally been pressed through the pinhole?
Well, 'nothing' is left.  Nothing has infinite time and gravity.  The entire universe on the other side of the *ahem* beach-ball, is sucked back through the pinhole, and the process repeats itself. . . Forever.

This means, yes, for if only a blink of an eye, the entire universe could actually be the size of a (beach-ball?) as it is "Big Banging" outward again.  Thats just fun.

I told my wife this one night and she asked me 'But Evan, what If you could stand outside of the beach-ball and watch the universe expand/contract.  'where' exactly would you be standing? After thinking about it for a long time, my answer is finally this: 'nowhere'.  Moreover, IF this was possible, you wouldn't be able to 'see' the universe at all. It doesn't exist in your time.  You are, in a hypothetical sense, your very own universe at that moment.  You can't see through what does not exist. 

Okay, assuming you're still reading, I have another fun bucket-o-popcorn:  If the universe is repeating itself over and over again (and please, get the hour-glass picture out of your head now, it doesn't actually look like that)
Does it:
1. Repeat itself exactly as it did before? or
2. Change.  Every time, a new and different universe.

Both are fun to explore.  for option 1, its fun to think that we will exist, are existing, and have existed, an infinite number of 'times'.  (this also helps explain de ja vu!)
For option 2, well, thats just one giant popcorn-ball, baby.

[Gemma]

My problem with the consciousness 100000 times the size of our sun is that, if consciousness is truly just the interaction between forces and particles, not all consciousness is self aware. In fact, very, very little would be. They would work like a computer: taking in forces, spitting out the according movements and reactions. We can only think because of our brains. Unless there is a physical structure calculating and moving throughout the universe, as big as the universe, I don't believe there could be a god, in the way most people see god. And also: I know you didn't say there is a reason, but there was nothing to say about the alternative. It's always more interesting to go with the idea that requires more thinking, not ending the thoughts. Which, is why I assume all this is real. If this isn't real, if we are just a dream, or in a dream, then what else is there to wonder about? It's much better, imo, to assume this is all real. It's like a maze: why purposely head toward the dead end when there's so much more to explore?

Well, thats not really what I was saying.  I didn't mean that this isn't real, and by real, I mean physical.  What I meant is that if a 'being' as small as us can move objects, what could a massive 'being' do?  I didn't really mean a literal 'dream', more, a manifestation of its own will.  The universe, and by 'universe' i mean 'time', expands as the giant sleeps. . .   Its a fun little corner of the maze, thats all.  Again, its not necessarily my opinion that this is the case, its just fun to explore the idea.  Again, I won't really discuss my actual opinions until I talk with someone that has the same information that I do.  Wars are fought that way, and people die for this reason. 

Something I've been thinking about more than 'god' lately is 'nothing'.  And by nothing, I mean the lack of 'all'.
No matter, no time, no space... Nothing.  I have a small tattoo to remind me of this often, and I find myself getting even more confused 12 years after I marked myself with it.

I read this article in science magazine regarding 'anti-matter'.  Steven Hawking seems to think that in the beginning there was this great collision of matter and anti-matter.  I don't have a problem talking about my opinions regarding this, because it does not contend with anyone's beliefs regarding 'god':

My problem with the entire concept of 'anti matter' is that it 'isn't' at all.  Its not 'something' in the sense that we think of 'things', in fact, it must be quite the opposite.  Its the lack of all things.  'It', is 'nothing'.   Try to imagine 'nothing' and out of nothing, comes the universe.  Through a pinhole, time, matter, and 'all' comes roaring, expanding, destroying nothing in its path.  But where did it come from? I think, Casper, it came from the same place its going:  The center of the universe.  Try to bear with me on this:

Try to imagine the universe having two parts: one expanding, one collapsing. As one expands, from the pinhole, the other is collapsing into the same pinhole.  Try to imagine it looking something like an hour-glass.  Its like taking a beach-ball, letting some air out, and twisting it in the middle.  As you squeeze one side of it, the air moves into the other side, and visa versa.  We already know that time is contingent upon gravity, which is contingent upon matter and mass.  So then, what happens when the entire universe has finally been pressed through the pinhole?
Well, 'nothing' is left.  Nothing has infinite time and gravity.  The entire universe on the other side of the *ahem* beach-ball, is sucked back through the pinhole, and the process repeats itself. . . Forever.

This means, yes, for if only a blink of an eye, the entire universe could actually be the size of a (beach-ball?) as it is "Big Banging" outward again.  Thats just fun.

I told my wife this one night and she asked me 'But Evan, what If you could stand outside of the beach-ball and watch the universe expand/contract.  'where' exactly would you be standing? After thinking about it for a long time, my answer is finally this: 'nowhere'.  Moreover, IF this was possible, you wouldn't be able to 'see' the universe at all. It doesn't exist in your time.  You are, in a hypothetical sense, your very own universe at that moment.  You can't see through what does not exist. 

Okay, assuming you're still reading, I have another fun bucket-o-popcorn:  If the universe is repeating itself over and over again (and please, get the hour-glass picture out of your head now, it doesn't actually look like that)
Does it:
1. Repeat itself exactly as it did before? or
2. Change.  Every time, a new and different universe.

Both are fun to explore.  for option 1, its fun to think that we will exist, are existing, and have existed, an infinite number of 'times'.  (this also helps explain de ja vu!)
For option 2, well, thats just one giant popcorn-ball, baby.

oh & ps, I don't like stephen hawking.  I think mostly he's put on a pedestal because he is disabled, and not nearly as intelligent as he would like to think that he is.  Its like everyone just feels sorry for him, so they let him think that.  Mostly, I think he just likes to **** with people's minds, and there are much smarter people than him.

[Casper]

That's one of the most interesting thoughts I've ever heard. Although, here's another fun little twist in the maze: how can we define the edge of the universe? If space is nothingness, (I know u didn't say this, but many people do), then how can the universe have boundaries at all? Can we just not move past the edge of the universe? If space didn't have an edge, then that would mean half of the things we think about the universe can't be true. I'll have much better thoughts tommorrow, I'm too tired to think straight... Lol

[Gemma]

That's one of the most interesting thoughts I've ever heard. Although, here's another fun little twist in the maze: how can we define the edge of the universe? If space is nothingness, (I know u didn't say this, but many people do), then how can the universe have boundaries at all? Can we just not move past the edge of the universe? If space didn't have an edge, then that would mean half of the things we think about the universe can't be true. I'll have much better thoughts tommorrow, I'm too tired to think straight... Lol

No, i mean quite the opposite.  The universe DOES have an edge.  Space is not 'nothing' because even in space, time passes.  No matter where you are, or how far out you go, you are still under the influence of gravity, and time will still past, hence, YOU still exist.  Now, if you could fly a ship to the edge of the universe, here is what would happen:
time would slow down, slower, and slower, the closer you got, until you actually hit the 'event horizon' and basically, time would stop/seize to exist.  Fly a little further, which is clearly impossible, and 'you' would seize to exist in the most literal sense you can imagine.  You and your ship would literally be your very own universe. Stuck 'there', forever. Time would never pass, and the universe wouldn't exist in 'your' new universe. Where is 'there'? you might ask? Nowhere. 'where' is home? it doesn't exist for you anymore.  Which way to fly go get back? You can't fly through what doesn't exist.  What would you do? You can't 'do' anything, because 'doing' takes time, and you don't have it.  'you' would exist, but only to you. See what I'm getting at?  Thats one theory, and its almost the same theory I have regarding death.

The other, and in my personal opinion, if you fly a strait line across the universe 999,999,999x the speed of light, you would eventually just end up in the same place you started, but about a trillion years would have passed.  Nice trip, right? 

I don't mean to sound condescending, but you're not grasping the concept of 'nothing' yet.  The difference between space and 'nothing' is 'direction/dimension' and time. .  I'm not saying that I have by any means at all either.  I think its a long journey, and finally, when we die, we will say to ourselves 'I get it' .. . . . forever. 

[Casper]

Oh, I think i get it... Sorry, I can't get the idea that space is nothing out of my head, lol. It's what I think of. I'd think there has to be a physical difference between space and nothing. I still like to believe that the universe is infinite, though. It's much simpler... Much more... Primal, I guess. Everything about the universe is, in my experience, deceptively simple in it's nature. Most parts of the universe aren't as complex as earth. The most complicates thing that's commonly found is stars, going through nuclear fusion. Also, a lot of ongoing patterns seem to exist. One is that everything cannot be destroyed, only recycled. Which is the only reason I've ever actually considered an afterlife of some sort. Another pattern is infinity: the only thing we know for sure is limited is the speed of light, for some unknown reason. The highest number is infinity, and since mathematics run the universe, that alone means quite a bit. There was a few more occurences of infinity, but I can't seem to remember them atm. If the universe was infinite, then that would open up a big fun part of the maze. I.e., by the laws of probability, an exact copy of our planet would exist elsewhere. Isn't that just incredible to think about?

[Gemma]

Whatever floats your boat I guess, casp.

For me, 'nothing' is easier than infinite.  Nothing is also more interesting than infinite.  The universe has a boundary, but that doesn't mean that there could be an infinite number of universes. .   Anyways, its a little early for this.

ttyl.

[CaptainTrips]

  Space is not 'nothing' because even in space, time passes.  No matter where you are, or how far out you go, you are still under the influence of gravity

Quick question... what about like the time before the big bang... when everything was probably in a state of nothing did time pass?

Just curious

[Casper]

  Space is not 'nothing' because even in space, time passes.  No matter where you are, or how far out you go, you are still under the influence of gravity

Quick question... what about like the time before the big bang... when everything was probably in a state of nothing did time pass?

Just curious

hmm... that thought broke the universe :0 if time was not moving and everything was nothing, then how would the big bang have happened? even if it took .00000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000001x10^-999999999 billionth of a second, it still took time. so if time was "frozen", then how could it have happened?